Million

MvM Mann Up Mode Squad Surplus Vouchers are Not Worth Using

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Here's why:

Suppose each member uses a squad surplus voucher.

Also suppose each voucher is worth about 4 refined, which I believe is approximately the current market value. That's 24 refined worth of vouchers consumed.

The payoff is 6 additional item drops for everyone at the end. That's 36 additional item drops. As far as I am aware, the only things that can drop are the unique quality weapons valued at 0.5 scrap each, and new MvM hats and misc items. I think it's generous to value these new hats at around 3 refined, and that a group will get roughly four of them from a completed run with six vouchers. So that's around 12 refined from hats, plus the remaining thirty-two unique item drops coming to a total of 13.7 refined.

So that's more than 10 refined less than the value of the vouchers. If you feel any of my estimates are way off, or if you know of any other possible and more valuable item drops (Archimedes? The Engi robot?) resulting from vouchers, then please let me know.

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Archimedes and the Robro are more valuable, but your point still stands. I think if you look hard you can now find Vouchers for around 3.66 ref.

But, then there's the fun factor. I'm willing to throw a little money away for each game just to see Reaver's reaction each time when he gets 5 Boston Bashers. I mean, that's what I call buying happiness. :)

I won't pressure people to use vouchers as they are certainly not necessary. But I'll try to keep some on hand because our normal "voucher" group likes to do a voucher game from time to time.

One last thing: Million is on the forums?????????? *gasp*

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Glad someone sat down to do the math on this. :)

I'm not convinced that Valve will see it the same way though; in effect, the thirty six weapons from a full voucher run will alone outweigh the cost of a single voucher per person using their store pricing.

TL;DR - Mann Co. Store pricing =/= community assigned value

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I had this conversation with Frost on the 2nd day of MvM and we pretty much agreed in raw costs, it's not worth doing Mann-Up mode.

The ref you save, you can use to buy and distribute twice as many hats as you would have found normally.

Remember, the ticket + voucher are only for the loot. You can access the difficulty without it paying any money.

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I'm mostly concerned about the voucher, I'm assuming that at least the gold bot killer weapons are valuable enough to be worth playing to have a shot at, even if only for the fun factor of playing for a big chance every six games. I just don't know about the vouchers, given the stakes, but I'll definitely keep using vouchers with everyone if it makes it more fun for everyone else.

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I don't need to do the paid version anymore. It's fun but why pay money just to wait 25 minutes in a lobby to start and then get crappy items? I'd rather just do the hard difficulty on our own servers for free. Are they on regular or difficult setting on our own servers? And is it possible for us to change the settings?

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Well your not really paying any money, your trading virtual items that are just calculated pixels on a screen. Yes some of us have paid a little bit of money for our first few tickets. But given the fact that this game is 5 years old and I have spent a total of 23 dollars on it I think it's been money very well spent.

No matter the game, your spending your money and time for the enjoyment and that is it. So you have to ask what is your time and enjoyment worth. If it requires more of my time to make up for a small diminishing return to enjoy an hour with friends and have a chance at picking up an accessory and they also have a chance, then I think it is well spent.

If your looking to make a profit in a game than I wish you the best of luck because I will never see you as every bit of your time is going to be absorbed in crunching numbers and grinding alone in some remote or public corner of a game world.

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Well your not really paying any money, your trading virtual items that are just calculated pixels on a screen. Yes some of us have paid a little bit of money for our first few tickets. But given the fact that this game is 5 years old and I have spent a total of 23 dollars on it I think it's been money very well spent.

No matter the game, your spending your money and time for the enjoyment and that is it. So you have to ask what is your time and enjoyment worth. If it requires more of my time to make up for a small diminishing return to enjoy an hour with friends and have a chance at picking up an accessory and they also have a chance, then I think it is well spent.

If your looking to make a profit in a game than I wish you the best of luck because I will never see you as every bit of your time is going to be absorbed in crunching numbers and grinding alone in some remote or public corner of a game world.

K I was gonna throw up a <3 for you for that post, but that last paragraph looks like suspiciously like its directed at me.... <sniff> :(

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Baby come back. You can blame it all on me. Cause I was wrong, and I just can't live without you.

Wasn't aimed at anyone just if you look to make a profit 90% of your time becomes doing that instead of just playing the game. That is all.

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I feel K was talking in that sense as that's what the initial target of this thread became:

...

The payoff is 6 additional item drops for everyone at the end. That's 36 additional item drops. As far as I am aware, the only things that can drop are the unique quality weapons valued at 0.5 scrap each, and new MvM hats and misc items. I think it's generous to value these new hats at around 3 refined, and that a group will get roughly four of them from a completed run with six vouchers. So that's around 12 refined from hats, plus the remaining thirty-two unique item drops coming to a total of 13.7 refined.

...

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To be fair, Million agreed to keep using vouchers with us even knowing that it would cost him money :P

I knew there was a reason I liked that guy. My only pet peeve is that he's constantly spamming our forums with posts.

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Well since Panda has been giving me a hard time about this, and because I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about my motivations here, I think I should clear something up.

First of all, I assure you (K) that I am not out to make a profit, and I'm not saying I won't play if I can't accomplish this. I agree with you that it's money well spent on a very fun game. And yes Frost, I will keep using vouchers regardless of the rewards as long as everyone else wants to.

Now Panda was arguing with me earlier, and claiming that I backtracked my argument to something more subjective by saying that using Tour of Duty tickets is still worth it because you have a shot at gold botkiller weapons. I just like the idea of having something to hope for at the end of the game; a chance at a big prize, like the lottery. In my first post I did calculations to show that the expected return for vouchers is much lower than the cost, but I also briefly touched on the idea that if some of the more rare voucher drops were valuable, it would still be worth it to use vouchers just for the chance to get those.

I had assumed that Archimedes and Robro were valued smilar to the other MvM hats and misc items, but Panda tells me that they can sell for 10 to 15 keys. If this is true, then I say vouchers are definitely still worth using. Note that this stance is still not based on making a net profit, as this is still not my goal. I simply like having valuable prize items as a possibility. This is the same rationale I use for Tour of Duty tickets and the chance for gold botkiller items.

Panda was mad at me for using this logic, because it appeared to be at odds with my orignal argument which in retrospect does appear to be a complaint about the expected return on investment using vouchers. This was not my intent, I was merely trying to convey my general dissatisfaction with the entire voucher reward pool. Panda brings up an interesting point though. If I'm only concerned with gambling on a chance to win a big prize, I should just be opening crates instead of playing Mann Up MvM. I have two responses to this. One, I do open crates when the common crate items are at least somewhat desirable. I opened scorched crates when those were new, and I will probably open crates next time a new series rotates in. And two, I like having rewards and prizes as a built in component of the game, which is one of the things that makes Mann Up MvM fun. Crates are nice in theory but they are too meta, meaning receiving and opening crates is too far removed from actually playing the game.

Panda joked that I should solve this problem by opening a crate at the end of a night playing TF2 to reward myself. I actually kind of like this idea and I might start doing it, but it would be interesting to see if there was a way to make more of a game out of it, like having some sort of a "prize crate" up for grabs that the winner could then open using his or her own key. It could even be a random disribution method where anyone who wants to open a crate can sign up for a chance to get it after playing a few rounds of TF2. This might sound silly because I know a lot of us probably have pages of crates that we don't want to open for the same reasons I was doubtful about vouchers. However, the fact that many of us are still willing to play with vouchers purely for the fun factor tells me that if crates could somehow be made more fun, then people would be more inclined to open those as well.

So, if anyone else likes the idea of making crates more fun, we should come up with some other ideas for combining crates with the main game in some way, adding "prize crates," subsidizing keys for crates, or in some way making them more interesting. Maybe I'm just a radical dreamer, but I think it could work. It's somewhat off-topic though so if there's any interest at all, I or someone else can make a new topic about it.

And yes, I know this post was horribly drawn out and way too long, but I don't post often so I think y'all can deal with it.

here's the TL;DR:

I like fun, and I like TF2, but I also like prizes and gambling, so we should funstitutionalize crates so they can be prizes as well.

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No matter the game, your spending your money and time for the enjoyment and that is it. So you have to ask what is your time and enjoyment worth. If it requires more of my time to make up for a small diminishing return to enjoy an hour with friends and have a chance at picking up an accessory and they also have a chance, then I think it is well spent.

I'm fine with that reasoning. In fact, I use it to rationalize my purchases on F2P games vs the typical boxed game model.

But the main difference, which is quite significant in this case, is that MvM does not cost a ticket or voucher to play. The ticket or voucher is entirely for the loots. The loot is a momentary burst of surprise and joy, sure, but 99% of the enjoyment for me in TF2 is the gameplay and the people I'm playing with. Tickets and vouchers don't buy those. I guess other people see it differently.

(Disclaimer: if a weapon is functionally an upgrade, then yeah, I want it.)

Who the heck cares what Panda thinks about anything anyways?

Probably, no one. For some reason, I feel like the bad guy in all of this, so I'll refrain from making future posts on this topic.

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